Question for Andrew and others-PLEASE READ!

RE: Question for Andrew and others-PLEASE READ!

John Q — Sat, 12 Aug 2000 07:06:32 +1000

Steve,

As Doug as has said, making money from actual record sales is not easy considering everything that has to be recouped and everyone from managers to producers getting their piece of the pie. The same goes for playing live - unless you're a well known or at least name artist and you can get some guarantees upfront. Like, I'll be going out later this year tour managing a 4-week US tour with an up-and-coming act. We will be doing half club gigs and half supporting a big act. The budget for this will be around 50k, which will come down to every guy in the band making about 300 or 400 bucks, plus per diems, a week (that's probably in the burger flipping range at McDonald's...), which means that the band as a whole will be 50k in debt one month later (hopefully merch sales will offset some of that - IF the big headline act ALLOWS you to sell your one T-shirt that is!). The whole idea behind touring is that you can turn people on to your band and album(s), which with any luck will be available in stores, and build for the future. Overall, you have to be a lil' bit crazy to be in this business as an artist because you are the last in line to get paid - unless you're Sting or Kiss, people that can call the shots. But as Doug has said - 'it's a complusive thing' and many can't turn it off even if they wanted to.

Doug. You are an inspiration.

Rammy — Sat, 12 Aug 2000 06:39:07 +1000

Thank you.

Rammy.

RE: STUN LEER!!

Vince Viani — Sat, 12 Aug 2000 06:17:55 +1000

Hello Doug,

I think your debut cd has a killer production and one of the most professional-sounding cds I have ever heard

I really enjoyed the cd, there is a review of it on AOR Central, at:

www.geocities.com/aorcentral

One question, however...why did you include the two best songs at the end of the cd?!?! "Deliver" is excellent!!!

Cheers

Vince

Doug Howard/Stun Leer wrote:
-------------------------------
Thanks,

Hope the next one is to your liking... a sample download is available at our website...

http://www.stunleer.com ....

Go to the mp3 section.

(Used properly mp3 is our friend and will not cause adverse side effects to household pets or unsightly skin eruptions on humans.)

Regards,

Doug

Doug, Thank You!

Rocker Chic — Sat, 12 Aug 2000 05:38:21 +1000

Ya, know, these are the types of discussions and posts that keep me coming back to the Noticeboard! Although I've never claimed to know much about the business (I'm more concerned with how it makes me feel and how it sounds, rather the inner-workings of it), I am glad you took the time to put together such a clear, concise, and intelligent post, Doug.

When I read posts like these from the musicians, it makes me want to check out their music even more. If an artist can display that he's actually got brains and can form a complete sentence , I'm more eager to give their music a good listen.

And, listen I did! Visited your site and, although it's clearly still under construction, I found it very entertaining. :-D You guys seem to have a great sense of humor, too. I really enjoyed both MP3s and will be looking forward to checking out the rest of the albums now.

And for you, my European/Canadian buddies.... Why the heck haven't I heard you talk about these guys before and why have you not *insisted* that I track it down??? I rely on you guys to keep me informed of this stuff since I am stuck over here in the U.S. with all of this "sugar pop, alterna-crap" stuff. Shame on you! :-P

Rocker Chic

RE: Thanks for the reply Doug...I second that

Steve, Denmark — Sat, 12 Aug 2000 04:18:35 +1000

I´ve often pondered this issue - thanks Doug for an extremely enlightening reply. Hope things continue to be positive for you. Respect is certainly due to an artist with so much integrity.

Thanks for the reply Doug.....at least it's honest

Kieran — Sat, 12 Aug 2000 03:56:54 +1000

Thanks Doug , it's always good to hear about things from the artists perspective, I do wonder why the hell people like you struggle making 'our' type of music for little or no reward , when surely it would be far more beneficial to write and play on something more musically acceptable , anyway THANKS for still believing and thanks for the great music over the years...Don't ya know what love is...this could be ..........(I could never hit the high part damn!!!)hope the new Stun Leer is along the lines of the first , the debut is still one of my most played albums (I kid you not)cheers......Kieran

RE: Question for Andrew and others-PLEASE READ!

Doug Howard/Stun Leer — Sat, 12 Aug 2000 03:47:58 +1000

Thanks,

Hope the next one is to your liking... a sample download is available at our website...

http://www.stunleer.com ....

Go to the mp3 section.

(Used properly mp3 is our friend and will not cause adverse side effects to household pets or unsightly skin eruptions on humans.)

Regards,

Doug

RE: Question for Andrew and others-PLEASE READ!

Steve — Sat, 12 Aug 2000 02:38:54 +1000

Your debut was fantastic!! Can't WAIT untill the new one. If its half as good as your other one it will be great!! Thanks for taking the time to answer me.

RE: Question for Andrew and others-PLEASE READ!

Doug Howard/Stun Leer — Sat, 12 Aug 2000 02:15:54 +1000

Ok.... Since I've been somehow doing this for a living for awhile, I'll try to answer you. Although the associated issues are complex. So my apologies if my answer seems long winded:

Record sales and their ensuing royalties to artists have always been irrelvant in the big picture unless you crack over 500K units in the US (gold), and are a songwriter, thus earning publishing. Typically a new band in their first year, even with a top 10 single and healthy sales will only see mabye less than $10,000. per year in net income per member after all is said and done. "Said and done" means paying commissions to managers and agents, pubishers, press agents, tour costs, recording debts, legal fees, producer points, label debts (yes, label debts), etc, etc,. This seems I know unfair and unbelievable.... but it's the way things are and have been done for as long as I've been in this.

For an excellent rundown of what we as artists deal with check out "Courtney Love's Math"...

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/index.html

The big arguement now is the anti-artist environment that has evolved at most of the labels, both major and minor... and how it makes it nearly impossible for any mid-level artist to survive. Thus most older artists selling less than around 200K units often disappear into normal life and new artist's often don't even bother trying when they get a taste of what's in store for them.

But that is another discussion and I would digress too far from your original question. You can however check this site for what Prince and other artists have to say about the myriad of survival issues artists face today....

http://www.npgonlineltd.com/html/frames-freedom.html

Personally, I've been lucky in surviving. The vast majority are definitely not. As an "artist", I never (to date anyway..) became a household name as a huge "star". Though I apparently do have a "name" and I have despite the odds, managed to make a living at this over these years. However I am the exception... not the rule.

Touring in the beginning is how I fed myself and everyone else in my house. Later, royalties from works I had written, produced, or performed on (soundtracks, works for hire, outside projects, etc. etc.) began to add up and the ensuing (eventual!!) royalties began to make up more of the feed bag. I also, eventually, learned to work the money and invested some of it. So now, while I'm certainly not living like Sting... I am living. Also you should know that since I have started operating in this sort of underground rock arena and dealing with smaller record labels and such..... I actually receive more of the money proportionately that you spend on our music than I ever did with a major label. I actually sell far fewer records than I did 10 years ago, but I actually see a more direct and better return.

Go figure!

Now to your really good question... "Why do we do it?" The only answer I can personally come up with is because apparently we can't help it. It's compulsive. It will undoubtably sound trite, but the music has to come out. I hear it in my sleep and when I'm awake (I also am quite unemployable in any traditional sense so what else is there to do?... sure as hell can't sell insurance with these tattoos!).

Ultimately believe it or not, I (and everyone else I know) do it because of the reaction you give us as listeners and supporters. Especially now, later in the game when the initial high of "holy-shit-look-mom-we're-rock-stars-now" ecstacy trip has worn off. So never underestimate your importance to us. And conversley, if you feel you do not receive your due from us... you should move on to someone who you feel deserves your support.

Even though, more often than not, the majority of the money that you spend on a CD might end up in some record label's pocket... your continued support of the artists you enjoy is more important than you can imagine in the long run. It ensures the artist's growth, development and ultimately.... better music.

Which brings us to Napster...

For "mid-level" (whatever that is) artists like myself and most others that I know, we have mixed feelings about it. On the one side it serves the purpose of getting our music into your hands easily and quickly without having to see it mutilated and then overpriced by the labels. On the other side... and I have experienced this first hand.... it can take much needed earnings away from us and thereby threaten our ability to continue to create competent "art". So in the case of a band like Metallica, the earnings that a downloader may be denying them may seem like nothing to some people in light of the massive ammounts of money a band like that earns.... to acts like my band, Stun Leer, it can and does cause problems.

So my answer, like many others like me, to that issue is two sided. We're flattered that you enjoy our stuff enough to download it.... but we hope your downloading doesn't give the labels an excuse to cut the already tight budget for the next album.

Now, if I haven't bored you to tears by now with this long response to your question... Let me just say thank you for enjoying the music and supporting whomever your favourite bands are. Most of the crap that we deal with is really our own problem at the end of the day... and we do deal with it. The myriad of solutions we come up with to still get out the goods in my mind is sometimes indicative of the band's ability as a whole.

You as a listener fortunately don't have to bother with this, and you shouldn't have to. Your job is to hopefully tell us if what we're cranking out is right..... or if it blows. And for that direct honesty... I'm personally grateful to you.

Regards,

Doug Howard - Stun Leer
http://www.stunleer.com

RE: Question for Andrew and others-PLEASE READ!

Vince Viani — Sat, 12 Aug 2000 02:01:05 +1000

Hi Steve,

This has been the best topic yet...excellent!

I have no idea about what bands make on the tours, but I do know that at least on the independent labels, bands don't really sell that much. Unless of course, the band is Ten, which in that case they do make a living from doing music and quite a good one (from what I hear)

I think if a band on one of those labels sells 10,000 copies the label will be quite happy, but I doubt that a band could make a living selling only that many records

However, if it's not a band, and it's a solo artist....then it's a different story. Especially if they have their own studio and record everything there (so as to keep expenses way down)

At the end of the day, it all depends on the type of deal you have...so it's quite difficult to say how many copies you'd need to sell in order to make a living...

But it is safe to say that the vast majority of AOR/MHR artists do not do only music for a living....it's sad but that's the way things are

I don't mind....because since they are on independent labels they have full musical control, integrity, and can release great records without worrying about selling 2 million copies or all the other bullocks associated with being signed to a major label

If you ask me...I love the state of the scene the way it is. We get great albums full of great songs, and can see our favourite artists up close...does it get much better than this?

Cheers

Vince

Steve wrote:
-------------------------------
OK, this has been bothering me for quite awhile now, How are any of the bands out there able to make a living? Don't jump on me yet hear me out...

Ok, we have all these bands like Attraction, Shang Hai, Danger Danger, Hair of the Dog(you can basically add any band here), etc... that have released cd's this year. Here in the good ole' USA, they are probably basically ignored as far as the mainstream public is concerned. Some go out on tour and play to about 500-1500 people if they are lucky. Case in point Dokken and Cinderella played here not too long ago to about a 1000+(ten years ago that # would have been 10,000+), tickets were about $20.00 or so. For a gross of about $20,000. Is that good? I don't know. I guess after expenses the band maybe gets a decent cut and if they played to crowds like that every week or night it could add up to a decent profit...

Realistically how many cd's do these bands actually sell, do they make more money going on tour? Because CD sales(a....

Question for Andrew and others-PLEASE READ!

Steve — Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:31:49 +1000

OK, this has been bothering me for quite awhile now, How are any of the bands out there able to make a living? Don't jump on me yet hear me out...

Ok, we have all these bands like Attraction, Shang Hai, Danger Danger, Hair of the Dog(you can basically add any band here), etc... that have released cd's this year. Here in the good ole' USA, they are probably basically ignored as far as the mainstream public is concerned. Some go out on tour and play to about 500-1500 people if they are lucky. Case in point Dokken and Cinderella played here not too long ago to about a 1000+(ten years ago that # would have been 10,000+), tickets were about $20.00 or so. For a gross of about $20,000. Is that good? I don't know. I guess after expenses the band maybe gets a decent cut and if they played to crowds like that every week or night it could add up to a decent profit...

Realistically how many cd's do these bands actually sell, do they make more money going on tour? Because CD sales(at least here in the USA) can't be more than a few thousand each(they get virtually no radio airplay either). I am sure that overseas the sales are much better but here in the USA the market just isn't there. Can someone help me out with this?

So why even bother? Don't get me wrong I can't possibly live imagine living without all the great music that these artists put out. Maybe its for the music, the answer you here so many times and doing something you love, and money is not that important. BUT... I hope all these great bands are able to make a decent living so that they can keep putting out great music, because I can't live without it.

Please post your thoughts and comments... Thanks